Helen Maringer from Shire Post Mint takes us behind the scenes for how they make coins based on American Gods, Game of Thrones, the Stormlight Archive, and of course Pat Rothfuss' Kingkiller world.
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Shire Post Mint
Patrick Rothfuss: [00:00:00] Hey there, everyone. My name is Pat Rothfuss and I'd like to welcome you to Worldbuilders Weekly, the podcast! Each week we bring you the best in everything geek: books, board games, interviews with authors and other notable cool people. Even better, this is all for a good cause because Worldbuilders is a charity that works to make the world a better place. And we are so glad that you've decided to join us.
Gray: It is my great pleasure as executive director of Worldbuilders to welcome Helen Maringer from Shire Post Mint. Now this is a thrill for a lot of reasons. One of the benefits of coming into Worldbuilders was to get to see all of the cool stuff up close that it has had. And one of the first things that I was noticing was the coins [00:01:00] that had been, had sold from various places and you and I, our first interaction was when you gave a very generous donation last year for Geeks Doing Good. And it was, it was just remarkable how fast people snapped up those coins that that you had donated. And I thought it would be good this year to kind of...
sorta take a peek behind the curtain and get to know the people that make these cool things. And I guess the first question is at what point did your high school guidance counselor come up to you and say, yes, you're going to make fantasy coins for a living. That's exactly your job description.
Helen: It all started before high school. So. Yeah, one of my very first jobs when I was like 11, unpaid of course, was sorting out pennies. Cause before it was even like a business, my dad started making coins and he would strike on top [00:02:00] of pennies and we had to use copper ones. We've learned so much since then.
But yeah, sorting pennies. So pennies before 1982 solid copper. The other ones, copper plated zinc. I know this by heart. Yeah, so for me, I came onto the business about six years ago, but my dad has been making coins since 2001. So it's about 20 years now and he just started out making fan art for The Lord of the Rings, just cause he's a huge fan. And then that led to getting in contact with George R. R. Martin who we know is the author of Game of Thrones, the song of Ice and Fire series, and they got an agreement in 2003, and then just slowly started making coins. And then when the HBO series hit, you know, everything Game of Thrones just skyrocketed in popularity, including this very niche object of coins.
So, [00:03:00] my dad and my mom made the decision to really make a go for it. And, you know, he quit his job. She quit her job. They really tried to make something of the company and then my brother quit his job and came on to help with manufacturing. And then I came on to help sales. And yeah, since then, you know, we've gotten different properties, of course, King Killer Chronicle.
We did get Lord of the Rings, which was kind of, you know, the spiritual beginning of everything. And we do our own designs too.
Gray: Yeah. Neil Gaiman's American Gods.
Helen: Yeah. Yeah. That's our last one that we've gotten. There's another coming up. I'm very excited about
Gray: Just having to tease us. You said you've learned so much since then, but don't you also use traditional techniques? I mean, on [00:04:00] your website, Shire Post Mint, by the way, for those of you following along at home, shirepost.com is the website.
Helen: There's a redirect too, so it's fine.
Gray: Yes, cool. There's these, there's this wonderful picture of like, bunches of hammers and dies and you know, anvils and things like that.
What is the balance between, you know, modern technology design and classical techniques?
Helen: Yeah, it's different for every project. But in general, you know, we use old machines, older engraving styles, but with assistance of newer machines. The basic process, for example, the last coin we made for Patrick Rothfuss, the King Feyda penny.
So that design was just 2d and that was done by Nate Taylor. So we just took the paper positive and make it kind of large, like a one to six scale image. And [00:05:00] then my brother Woody is the engraver and he uses what's called a pantograph mill or a panto mill, or a reduction lathe. And he'll just trace that with a stylus.
And then the other side actually cuts it into metal. So he kind of just traces the rough outline, maybe scoops out some big chunks where he knows, you know, the depths of things. And then he'll take that kind of rough sketch. And then with hand tools, he'll put all the texture in and get the really fine detail.
And then just work his magic. And then that gets hardened the same way you like harden steel for a sword, depending on the type of steel. But yeah, you just bake it, quench it, all those fun things. And then once that's done, we'll mount the, those are... The finished ones are called dies. We'll mount the dies into a coin [00:06:00] press.
And we have... maybe like 12? I'm not... I don't even know how many we have right now. Our oldest one, which was also the first one we got is like early... made in the early 1900's, something like that. It's got two moving parts, strikes with about 40 tons of pressure. And then the one we use the most often strikes it around a hundred tons of pressure.
And that one was also like mid 1900's produced, when that machine was produced and it used to be hooked up to a steam line. Yeah, every press has their own...
Gray: That sounds terrifying in a way.
Helen: It's not hooked up to steam anymore, I'll say that.
Gray: Wait, this makes you steam punk as well. Just when I thought you couldn't get cooler.
Helen: Only if we go back to using the steam.
Gray: Yeah, I don't know, I think using the equipment that was steam powered, that [00:07:00] counts. Yeah. have the metals changed a lot that you use for these?
Helen: Yeah. We've just expanded the different types of metals. So, most often we'll use copper and brass and we use quite a bit of bronze and pure silver. And then the weirder metals are like niobium, which is used in jewelry and aerospace manufacturing, which can be anodized like a rainbow of colors and mokume gane, which is kind of like... if you know what Damascus looks like, which is kind of layered looking.
So that's steel. Mokume gane is the one we use most often is like copper brass and nickel silver, but it can be any different types of metals, but basically it's layered together. And I believe mokume gane is Japanese for like wood grain metal. So it kind of looks like wood and it was used in samurai swords. So that's a really [00:08:00] fun one.
And we use iron a lot too. Black iron, like for Iron Coin of the Faceless Man, gotta have pure iron. I'm sure I'm missing some metals, nickel, silver, titanium... all those other fun things.
Gray: I didn't realize there were that many. I was thinking you were going to name, like four. And now that's amazing. You mentioned the one that you did for Patrick Rothfuss, the new Vintish coin. Now that one breaks in half.
Helen: Yes.
Gray: Is that harder? Oh, you have one to show? That'd be fantastic.
Helen: Yeah, so this is the thinner one, which is kind of the standard. And this is the Worldbuilders exclusive one.
Gray: Oh yeah, the heavy coin, right.
Helen: And then when you break it apart, you get... oh wait, these are the same.
I have three halves, three of the same halves.
Gray: I mean, that seems authentic. The whole point of it is you could spend half a penny
Helen: Well yeah, if you had two... Two different coins that you broke. You can have like a [00:09:00] double... night king because it's normally just like the day side and the night side, but you can kind of mix it up and create a whole new coin.
And I think the trees do this really cool thing.
Gray: Oh, wow. Oh yeah. Look at that.
Helen: Two bare trees.
Gray: Okay, was that planned? Did you plan for it to look that cool when it was flipped upside down or was that one of those... no, don't answer. Just say yes, it was planned. That makes sense.
Helen: Yeah. It's been an amazing, fun thing, like I think all the coins we've ever made for Pat have been just really fun to play with. Like the drabs.
When you get a huge bag of them, you can like stack them together.
Gray: You could play Tak with them.
Helen: Yeah, it's awesome.
Gray: Yeah. Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Yeah, actually, one of the ways that we're going to be packaging these for the Geeks, Doing Good is that we are going to have a pair of coins [00:10:00] and then we'll have a heavy pair and then we'll have a heavier pair.
And and then be having these levels that people can get. One of the interesting things that we've found is that everybody wants two of the coins because they want one that they keep whole, and they want one they could break off and like give it to someone or play with it that way, which I think is kind of amusing and fun.
Do you have a favorite coin that you even, you know, throughout obviously a lifetime of these coins, like what is your favorite one that you like?
Helen: That's such a hard question. I used to say the Braavosi square, which I have here, which is just really... It's just a really satisfying shape and
Gray: That's from Game of Thrones, right?
Helen: Yeah. Yeah. From the same city of the Iron Coin of the Faceless Man, but.
In a way I love the moon coin. Maybe... [00:11:00] maybe the silver moon. And partly because it's such a lovely coin. It's just the front side of the moon on one side and the backside of the moon on the other. But we've just gotten such lovely feedback and you know, people saying, I gave this to my daughter, whose name is Luna, or just hearing how special that object has been in so many people's lives in just a few years.
It just warms my heart and makes me really proud to make things that people treasure.
Gray: I can definitely see that. The one that also stuck out to me, you mentioned you make your own products as well. And the Pizzas of Eight, can you tell about how that came about and what that was about?
Helen: Yeah. It actually came about because of Pat. I don't think we've even told him this, but, you know, we're... we're thinking about [00:12:00] Vintish things and trying to figure out how we could make these breakable coins. So we've been thinking about this for many, many years. And my brother was able to figure out a way don't want to give too much away, but he was able to figure out a way to do it.
And so once we figured that out, pizza immediately came to the surface. But the funny thing is we, the whole time did not think of the Pizzas of Eight phrase that was like, we put a picture of the finished pizza coin online and someone was like, 'oh, pizzas of eight. I get it'. And then we're like, we're definitely, we're taking that.
Gray: Yes, glad you got that. Yes, exactly.
Helen: And it was just such low hanging fruit the whole time. I'm amazed. So all that's to say, we get a lot from our customers. We get a lot of ideas, inspiration, [00:13:00] product names... couldn't do what we do without amazing customers, for sure.
Gray: Oh, I bet. And the... I mean, your, your reputation precedes you, shall we say. And you're about to open up a brick and mortar store as well?
Helen: Yeah, september 25th is hopefully going to be our grand opening date. So we built from scratch a 7,000 square foot building, and it's going to have our manufacturing in there, our offices, shipping and fulfilling, and then a little retail gift store. And we have plans... nothing's set in stone yet, but lots of plans for the grand opening party on the 25th.
So it should be a really fun time. And yeah, we're going to have tours. You'll be able to either do like a no-contact tour up top or. [00:14:00] Still trying to figure out the, on the floor tours, but to be able to see how we make things and...
Gray: Wow.
Helen: See all the presses.
Gray: That sounds amazing. When we talk about geeks doing good, for us.
Obviously, the purpose of our businesses is to be a nonprofit and to, you know, find ways to translate this geeky passion into helping change the world for the better. I know you as a business, I mean, your for-profit business. There's no reason why you'd have to do that. And yet, when I've talked with you, you know, both the years I've talked to you, you're like, well, we have this budget set aside just to help out with these kinds of events.
Can you talk about, like, why is that a commitment of Shire Post Mint? Like why are you spending your hard earned money on trying to change the world?
Helen: I think because we can. You know, we're a family business. We don't have outside [00:15:00] investors who are trying to make a certain amount of profit and my brother and I are kind of running the company now and, you know, we've talked about how amazing it is that we can work... or we can build the business that we always wanted to work for. Cause we've worked for other people and we've had bad bosses and good bosses. And I think it makes us feel good about the work we do if we can share some of it.
And, I dunno. I feel like our impact is still so tiny, but if we can make any impact, I feel like that's good for me.
Gray: Well, I mean, aside from the fact that, you know, have helped raise, you know, hundreds or thousands of dollars for Heifer International, there's also just the other impact, like you were saying of that delight of, you know, a child named Luna who has this coin that will last probably their [00:16:00] whole life.
When we talk about geeks doing good though. We, the definition of geek, Pat has talked about is that it's not limited to science fiction and fantasy and things like that. Like, we would definitely say that all of you are coin geeks because you just, you're enthusiastic about it. Look at that smile!
I mean, that's just the way it goes. But in particular like, Helen, what are you... Where does your particular geek flag fly? Like what are your go-to places for geekiness?
Helen: That's a great question. Art, books, zines, I'm really geeky about that. I really like just small, small published items, things.
Gray: I mean that, somehow that doesn't surprise me because the whole history of zines being printed on, you know, mimeograph machines and things like that, the small print kind of thing. That's awesome.
Helen: Yeah. Photography, I studied [00:17:00] photography in undergraduate and so I can get really nerdy about different photo processes. And yeah, definitely coin geek. I know very deep and specific knowledge about certain things. Like I can tell you all about Game of Thrones coins and all the history of every person who's on there.
You know, and all the translations for the Lord of the Rings coins we have.
Gray: I was just going to say, and I bet you can read Elvish. Yeah,
Helen: I can... well, at some point I might have been able to, but my breadth of knowledge in those spheres is not that wide, but it's real deep in a couple places.
Gray: Now I gotta say I was, I was just thinking, when I was thinking of questions to ask you, one of the ones I was thinking of asking you was, 'Okay, Game of Thrones or Lord of the Rings?'
And I'm like, that is an entirely unfair question. I will not ask that question. [00:18:00]The other question I was going to ask was Star Wars or Star Trek?
Helen: For me it's star Trek. I...
Gray: You and me both.
Helen: Yeah.
Gray: Good answer, that's the right answer. That's good.
Helen: I just watched a lot more with my dad growing up. I mean, we watched Star Wars too, but it was like... just spent more time on Star Trek.
Gray: Can we expect some gold pressed latinum to show up then?
Have you had requests for the Mandalorian beskar things?
Helen: Ooh. Yeah, it was a flood.
Gray: I bet.
Helen: Yeah. And unfortunately that kind of stuff, you know, if we don't have it, like right when the series comes out, people kind of forget, so... we really missed the boat on that one, for sure.
Gray: How do you, I mean, do you have a way that you can sort of tell when things are going to be things that last and things that are, you know, flashes in the pan?
Helen: It's difficult, but I would say [00:19:00] just talking to fans. You know, anytime people recommend anything. I either note it mentally, or I do have like a running list of people saying things and I'll write it down multiple times and then just say like, oh, 10 people told me I should do this. I need to do this versus, you know, one person said it. It's still there. And I'll do my own research. So we kind of have to like, trust our own guts a little bit. It's really nice when there's books so that you can, you know, read and feel out, you know, how immersive is this world versus like how compelling is this story? Because sometimes, like some of my favorite books that have these amazing fantasy scifi stories, like it's not as much about the world.
So even if there are objects, I feel in myself, like I don't desire those objects. I'd rather spend time with the [00:20:00] characters. So it's really hard. And sometimes we've had licenses we'd picked up that just didn't really... didn't really do much. But you know, we can still love them and cherish them for being, you know, amazing.
Amazing works or, or whatever. And, you know, we want to take a chance on, on things that aren't going to be those for sure moneymakers, just cause we like making cool stuff for cool things.
Gray: That's, that's almost exactly the, the Worldbuilders credo. Was there ever any coins that you made just because? Or somebody in the family said, I want to make these don't know if they're going to sell, but I want to make them cause they should exist.
Helen: Woody does that a lot, like the moon. That was definitely one like that. He's like, we should do a moon. I'm like, okay.
Gray: There we go.
Helen: We'll try it. And it did. [00:21:00] Yeah, it's really good. The moo's great. And the pizzas, that was one. License wise, I was a huge advocate for American Gods, just cause I love that book and coins are such a big deal.
Gray: Exactly.
It's gotta happen.
Helen: And yeah, thankfully it happened. And I'm a very big advocate for this next license. Cause it. Ah, I want to talk about it but...
Gray: I'm not going to guess, but I just suddenly went, Ooh, I want to have coin from John Wick. That's not science fiction-y stuff, but that would be, that's the other one where the coins are there. And I think I've mentioned to you multiple times, The Blacktongue Thief book.
Helen: Yeah
Gray: It has so many coins. Oh, they're...
The way they're described are so beautiful that they just, they have to exist at some point.
Helen: Well, that makes me nervous. That's a big commitment, but I will check it out. I'm excited to check it out.
[00:22:00]Gray: So one of the lines of coins that you do is the Norwegian, the Norse coins, with those beautiful runes on them and the, I think like Wayfinder kind of things.
And I have loved that kind of iconography for a long time. And then on January 6th, some idiot, yahoo with some similar symbols tattooed on his body, you know, stormed the Capitol. When something like that comes about how... do you have any kind of worry or response or things like that, you know, worried that people who subscribed to that particular ideology might try and use your coins as some kind of thing like that, or how do you deal with that kind of socially conscious idea?
Helen: Yeah, that's a big thing and we've been very aware of that. Yeah, unfortunately it's not new. The appropriation of old Nordic symbols and imagery [00:23:00] into this unfortunate ideology. And we had to evaluate if that's like a risk we were willing to take. One thing I think is important for us is knowing that we do support organizations that do good work. So. At the end of the day, that purchase is going to be funding a completely different ideology.
And I think part of our being public about the values that we align with is to say like, if this is your, if this is what you're into, that's not what we're into. And we've had a lot of people part ways. Yeah, some, sometimes that I've sent an email saying, you know, we're going to donate to a homeless shelter that supports LGBTQ [00:24:00] people. You know, we'll have people saying very nasty things. But then we can part ways and then we know that we're not aligned. Yeah, we do try to keep an eye... I don't know. It's really complicated. And...
Gray: I think that's actually the best answer. Yeah. I mean, we deal with, you know, similar situations with Worldbuilders where we have to evaluate, you know, the different sides of things. And one of the biggest things is that it's not ever an easy answer. There's nuances to things that need to be considered. And I think actually, that's one of the best answers I've ever heard to a question like that. So no more hard questions. Promise.
Helen: I do have one more thought on that. You know, the way that we've worded the packaging and the listings, you know, we've kind of interpreted the symbols in our own way.
[00:25:00] And we're, you know, it's a suggestion and of, you know, the Wayfinder finding your way through modern life or gaining the strength to move through modern life. And we have had just some beautiful, again, fans sharing what those mean to them and you know, how they've personally used them. And, you know, we've just felt overwhelming positivity and acceptance and warmth from those. So I think that's helped us, you know, understand that it is still, it can still be a very valuable symbol to some people who don't align with those ideologies. Yeah. I hope that made sense and added to all of that very complicated answer.
Gray: Yeah, no, that is exactly why that occurred to me. I have [00:26:00] a friend who is... has long been a member of the LGBTQ community and also identifies with his Norse heritage. And his own spiritual practice is very much aligned with that and has been for decades. And so when this started to come out he actually, long before this current issues, he had come out and said, you know, by the way, watch out for these particular people, they're appropriating these things and putting them into Neo Nazi culture and things like that. So he's been aware of that for awhile, but at the same time, he doesn't want to surrender those.
He wants to, you know, continue to make them a positive aspect of things. So I I think he would very much appreciate that you also are part of that effort. What I hope is going to be an easy question, easy answer or thing to answer. You've talked about your overall desire to, you know, for socially conscious capitalism for lack of a better term. Why Worldbuilders?
What made you decide you wanted to be a part of Worldbuilders fundraisers?
[00:27:00] Helen: I mean, it's everything I love. It's... books, it's Heifer International, which is actually based here in Arkansas, I believe. I got to go to the farm in Little Rock years and years ago, so I've always been a huge fan of Heifer.
Yeah, supporting new authors. I know you guys do a lot to promote people making cool work in the community, which is things I want to be doing. And I want to be a part of, and... Yeah, it's building a community that's awesome. And having objects that are awesome. It's all awesome.
Gray: That is a fantastic answer!
I can tell you right now, that's going to be like a loop on things. That's gonna be great. A lot of times when we do our shows or our interviews, we have what we call lightning round, which is just kind of getting to [00:28:00] know the person, not asking you... oh, you know about this. Okay, great. So our lightning round questions.
If I said, well, Helen, this has been a great interview. I'd love to buy you the beverage of your choice to celebrate this. So what would you like to have? It can be alcoholic, non-alcoholic, anything you want. What would you choose?
Helen: Okay, gotta start with a shrub, maybe something herbal. Okay. I actually have... one of my boys made a beet, sorry. One of my friends made a beet shrub that I have in my fridge. So we're going to do beet shrub, soda water, sprig of rosemary.
Gray: Wow. That is the most detailed drink we've ever had listed. Cool. All right. And if I said Hey Worldbuilders is gonna to buy you and everybody dinner, what would you like to have for dinner?
What's your meal of choice?
Helen: Does it have to be a restaurant meal?
Gray: Nope. Could be anything.
Helen: Alright, [00:29:00] my mom's spaghetti.
Gray: Mom's spaghetti, okay.
Helen: Mom's spaghetti.
Gray: That's so wholesome. I mean, wow.
Helen: It's really good!
Gray: Yeah, I believe it. And if I said, Hey, I'm going to be flying down to Arkansas and I need to grab a book to read on the plane. What would you recommend I read?
Helen: Akata Witch, by Nnedi Okorafor.
Gray: Oh yes!
Helen: Very good.
Gray: I have actually, I have read that. It was one of our favorites, my partner and I's yeah.
Helen: Awesome.
Gray: Good choice. And then I say, oh, well, you know what? I've already read that. You know what? I think I want to watch something on my iPad anyway, what should I stream? What should I download on my iPad?
Helen: So hard. There's so many good things. Can't go wrong with Umbrella Academy.
Gray: Very true. Although I heard they... did they cancel it?
Helen: I don't know!
Gray: That may have been clickbait. I saw something that was saying, you know, these are the shows that Netflix is [00:30:00] canceling and it had a picture of The Umbrella Academy, but you know, it could have been..
Helen: Yeah. In that interview with Elliot Page, he said they were filming. So I think...
Gray: Then let's hope! I agree. Yeah, that was a lot of fun. What is something in your everyday room that people would kind of go, wait, why does she have that?
Helen: This is a late night purchase that I got for myself. It's a 3d printed slug. I love it. Yeah, I was trying really hard not to just play with it cause it helps me focus.
Gray: It sounds like you could do some ASMR kind of stuff too with it. All right, last question. I have a magic wand that just happens to look like an apple pencil and I can wave my wand and... and we're going to customize this one.
I can wave my wand and anyone real or fictional, [00:31:00] alive, dead, past, present, future can appear and hand you a coin. Who would you like to have a appear, and what coin would they hand you?
Helen: Does someone in the future count?
Gray: Sure. It can be anybody.
Helen: I feel like I'd want... I'd want someone like a hundred years in the future. I don't know. This is going to get too sappy.
Gray: Sappy's great.
Helen: I'd want someone like a hundred years in the future, to hand me any Shire Post coin that has been in someone's heart, just to know that we've had a lasting impact.
Gray: That's absolutely, absolutely plausible, and it sounds wonderful. [00:32:00] I can definitely understand that. And see, now you're making me go well now I have to get some Shire Post coins and give them to my grandkids so they can, you know, they can be the one.
Helen: Or just bury them in the dirt and confuse metal detectors.
Gray: So that used to be a way that my parents would try and keep me busy.
They would bury little jars of coins in the backyard...
Helen: That's amazing!
Gray: And tell me to go find them. And then I found out later on that this was where they wanted to have their garden. And they were really having me till the soil for them because they knew... and yeah. They were smart.
Helen: Brilliant.
Gray: Yeah, exactly.
Helen: Well, they were already digging though. Oh, I guess they only had to dig one hole...
Gray: Yeah. And then I dug the rest of it.
Helen: That's very efficient.
Gray: Yeah. You know, a good way to get around the child labor laws. Absolutely.
[00:33:00] Helen: It's a game!
Gray: So obviously shirepost.com is one way to find you. Do you have, do you follow the socials or do you do, anywhere else that you're posting?
Helen: We do, yeah. Facebook, Instagram, our TikTok's pretty big.
Just shirepostmint. We're also on Twitter.
Gray: We'll have links to all those things in our show notes for wherever this ends up. We're doing a podcast and video and everything. So great. Thank you so much for taking the time. I really appreciate it. And thank you for helping us out with the Geeks Doing Good fundraiser.
Helen: Yeah. Thank you so much. I love being involved. Thanks for taking the time to talk.
Patrick Rothfuss: Thanks for tuning into Worldbuilders Weekly, everyone. Take care of yourselves and take care of the people you love.