John Gwynne talked about Norse mythology, reenactment, worldbuilding, and family.
Patrick Rothfuss: [00:00:00] Hey there, everyone. My name is Pat Rothfuss and I'd like to welcome you to Worldbuilders Weekly, the podcast! Each week we bring you the best in everything geek: books, board games, interviews with authors and other notable cool people. Even better, this is all for a good cause because Worldbuilders is a charity that works to make the world a better place. And we are so glad that you've decided to join us.
Zay: Hello everyone! Welcome back to Worldbuilders Weekly. I'm Zay, the Director of Operations here at Worldbuilders, and this is one of our lucky weeks that we have an awesome guest. Welcome John Gwynne.
John Gwynne: Hello, thanks for the invite. It's really great to be here.
Zay: Yeah! Today we'll be talking about your book Shadow of the Gods. This is an amazing book. I cannot wait to discuss it with you. I have a couple of announcements and of course we have trivia as, every week for you guys.
First and foremost, for any [00:01:00] of you that don't know, we're helping SFWA, the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers Association, almost forgot the acronym was, to create their first annual fundraiser. And, we are super excited to be a part of this. Please help them out if you can.
This is not, where the proceeds go to Worldbuilders, this is strictly a SFWA auction, but they have a lot of great stuff going on. A few examples of some of the really cool stuff that SFWA does, over a hundred scholars are being targeted, to writer populations in need for this year's Nebula conference.
The ongoing #DisneyMustPay taskforce is working to make sure that writer contracts are honored after major media acquisitions.
SWFA offers a mentorship program open to all genre writers, even if they're not SFWA members. And as soon as the scope of COVID 19 pandemic became clear, SFWA created a fund through which authors could seek assistance if their livelihoods were threatened. Lot of cool work there.
A little bit, [00:02:00] on our end, our founder Patrick Rothfuss is donating his time for some virtual events there, like a four person, kaffeeklatsch. Oh, I get it. It's a kaffeeklatsch so they can talk... or a one-on-one career coaching thing.
So, if any of that sounds super interesting to you guys head over there, they have a lot of cool items. Also auctioning off some experiential stuff and, it's just a great time. Uh, the Bitly link will probably be posted, I'd assume in the chat. it's https://bit.ly/sfwaauction. So S F W A auction.
You can bid until noon on Monday, May 18th.
All right, jumping into trivia quick. This one is our old one.
So you guys can throw it into the chat. If you think that you got some good guesses going on. What was the name of the 1977 post apocalyptic film, which was loosely based on the [00:03:00] 1969 novel with the same name. Do you think that you might have any idea what this one is, John?
John Gwynne: I could have a guess.
Zay: What is your guess?
John Gwynne: Invasion of the body snatchers?
Zay: Um, I guess... so I didn't know this. It is not. The answer is Damnation Alley. Is that, have you ever seen that?
John Gwynne: No.
Zay: Me neither. So if you guys' guess was Damnation Alley, you are put in the drawer to get, your, uh, are you put into the, the draw for our monthly prize draw. I'm having a way with words today, guys. Um, our new trivia question this week, you know the drill do not answer in the chat DM us so that you can get into that prize draw for trivia. What actor known for Jurassic Park played Odin, briefly, in Thor, Ragnarok?
This one is probably a Google-able [00:04:00] one, but that's okay. One of my favorite actors for sure, and has been for a long time. DM us guys, that includes questions@worldbuilders.org or on any of our social media platforms. All right. Now we got all of that stuff out of the way, the part I'm excited for, welcome John. How are you?
John Gwynne: I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for the invite and thanks for the welcome. It's good to be here.
Zay: So just for the audience, john-gwynne.com. You can find all about John. Not only is he the fantastic author of this book, but also, the Of Blood and Bone series, The Faithful and the Fallen, a lot of really amazing works, and also a Viking reenactor, which... very excited to ask you about that. Also on your website, you just seem to have a very colorful background. If you don't mind,
I'm going to read one of the exerpts you had on there.
John Gwynne: Sure, of [00:05:00] course.
Zay: It says that you studied and lectured at Brighton University, played double bass in a rock 'n' roll band, packed soap, been a waiter at a French restaurant, worked on landscaping and carpentry crews, traveled the U S and Canada. And, as I just mentioned a full-time writer and Viking reenactment. Um, that's a lot going on. If you don't mind me asking, what did you study and lecture at Brighton?
John Gwynne: Okay. So it's, um, it was a sociology based degree for my BA and for my master's, really focusing on sports.
So, but using sport really as a focus for looking at issues of class, race, gender, you know, sociological issues, really.
Zay: Do you feel like any of that in any way makes it into your writing?
John Gwynne: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I don't use my writing as a soapbox to preach from or anything I do it to entertain.
But, I think you can't not put a part of [00:06:00] yourself into your writing, you know, it's such a personal thing. So I think that a bit of an author leaks into what they write. And I, you know, I hope that I'm socially minded. I try to be. So you may find just a little threads to do with, equality, gender, class, race, you know, running throughout most of what I write. I think if you look hard enough, you'll probably see it in there somewhere.
Zay: Yeah. That's great to know. Just for the audience, real quick, I'm gonna read this exerpt on the back of your book. It says "When gods fought, it was a battle so savage, they destroyed themselves leaving nothing but bones and broken land of Vigrid in their wake. Now, as whispers of war echo over the fjords and across the plains, fate follows in the footsteps of three warriors: a huntress on a perilous quest, a noblewoman pursuing battle fame, and a thrall seeking retribution among the mercenaries known as the Bloodsworn. Great [00:07:00] book. As we just kind of talked about and, as the back of your book kind of hints at, your main characters, plural, are women, which I really enjoyed. I feel like with, myself and kind of being also a Norwegian, I kind of was able to put myself in this book a little bit and that's a really special experience.
Can you speak a little bit what it's like writing for you, strong female leads?
John Gwynne: Yeah. I mean, I'm so pleased you enjoyed it. That's really great to hear, so thank you. I approach... so with the female lead in this, I really, like my starting point is just writing. Um, characters with believable backgrounds. And I don't even think that much about the gender to start off with. It's about, um, you know, starting points and backstories for me for how I go about crafting characters.
So, Orka, for example, which is one of the characters [00:08:00] that you're talking about is a lady, you know, early forties I imagine, something like that. And, um she started, as a trope when I started writing or started thinking about this particular series. I like to play with tropes because I know some people think tropes are a bit of a swear word, but I think tropes are there for a reason.
They may be generalized, but I think if you can write a trope in contemporary fantasy that is engaging and believable, then it's not a problem to me that there in the book. So that the trope that I was thinking about was the retired person of violence.
So, you know, like, um, William Munny/ Clint Eastwood in Unforgiven, Wolverine/ Logan, that kind of, you know, older character, someone who's had a violent past, but has walked away from it and settled down. And I remember talking to my agent, Julie Crisp, just running past her my very [00:09:00] rough ideas as I started kind of putting the whole world and characters together.
And I said that I wanted to do something with that. And so we chatted backwards and forth in some way during the conversation, the idea of flipping that traditional gender, cause those characters are traditionally male, I think you'll find, in film and in books. And writing it from a female perspective just might be an interesting and fresher approach to that kind of trope, and that's where she started So that's how I went about crafting Orca.
And I think a lot of the story kind of came together around her and her character.
Zay: Yeah, looking back, I don't think you ever explicitly mentioned her age. but knowing that you imagined the character as like late thirties, early forties, for the audience also a mother, which is very prevalent throughout the book, it's ingrained in the book. Our other aspects I think are often left out.
Even when there are female leads, they tend to be, you know, younger women praise for their beauty, and that's kind of [00:10:00] about the part that they play. So yeah, that's even better to kind of like, imagine this strong, not older, but middle-aged woman, so, yeah. Your characterization, so kind of keeping on that topic, what is... it's like it's super originally developed. So you kind of talked about having really strong backgrounds. What is the process for you? Because I find that reading, your book, not only are the characters really strong, but the place in which they exist is super immersive.
John Gwynne: I'm so pleased you felt that, the whole series is that the Bloodsworn saga and this particular book, The Shadow of the Gods, which is book one, it's really my kind of love song to Norse mythology. because I, I grew up loving it as a child, you know, tales of Beowulf and Ragnarok, and that's just always kind of, had a special place for me. And then as an adult, I've gone on to do some Viking reenactment, which is a lot of fun, So it's [00:11:00] always been important to me and something that I've wanted to do. So I really wanted to craft a world that felt Norse, I wanted it to feel mythological, but also historical, you know, so I've really tried to find elements that will just bring that across in the story.
So those kind of historical authentic details, combined with touches of Norse mythology, and Scandinavian folklore. So the world and the characters kind of grew together for me. Usually the way I approach writing is, I'll get an idea kind of a seed or a spark, and then I'll start to craft the world and usually I'll have kind of a series of events starting to take place. And then the characters will become more fleshed out as I think about a point of view, that is the best kind of character to tell those events from. That's my approach. They kind of both grow up together simultaneously [00:12:00] but, it often starts, probably with the world and then the characters I kind of build into it. So that they can see the events and describe the world best, and obviously, hopefully you want your characters to be interesting and engaging. And so, I try to spend a lot of time thinking about, all the little details of their backstories that will just make the story... an interesting story, you know, that'll hopefully make you want to turn the pages and find out about their past, find out about their future, and care about them.
For me, that's the heart of when I read and my mantra has always been, write what you want to read. So the books, I love reading, the ones where I feel that emotional engagement with the characters, where I care what happens to them, if it's a character that you know, that I hate, or that I love, you know, that I want them to survive or to die a very, unpleasant, in an unpleasant way, you know?
[00:13:00] So they are the books that I love to read, so that's what I try. That's my goal. You know, that's kind of the Holy grail of what I'm striving to achieve in what I write.
Zay: And I feel that not even just their backstories, but throughout the book, you know, the food, the clothing, weapons, the campfire legends, um, it's really this experience that you feel like you're kind of with the character.
So while this is really heavy in Norse mythology, for anyone who loves that, you'll love this book. It's also really heavy in just the tactile journey that you're taking with the character. And it's, I really appreciate it. You also kinda mentioned the emotional engagement of kind of going along with the character.
Your book has tender moments, but I wouldn't describe it as like, You know, it's not like emotional, it's not like outpouring of emotion, [00:14:00] you know, they like, they don't wear their heart on their sleeve.
Do you have a conscientious way that you create those kinds of moments in the book?
John Gwynne: Sure. It's a hard question to answer because I think obviously I can only tell you how it works for me and how I approach writing. And it's not a one route works for all, you know, it's, it's, I think writing is very much, you find your own way and what works for you, you know, it works for you.
So, I mean, so yes, it's not what I'd call sentimental...
Zay: Right.
John Gwynne: ...in an outpouring of emotion. I think in my other series it's probably a little bit more of that. But this one, I felt that when I was doing my research into Norse mythology and, you know, the Icelandic sagas and the prose and poetic eddas and all those kinds of core manuscripts for Norse mythology and history, I just felt that that the Norse culture feels very pragmatic to me.
Zay: Yes.
John Gwynne: They've got a kind of [00:15:00] a dry sense of humor that life is hard and you just laugh at it. You know, you just take it on the chin and you kind of laugh at it. So that's part of what I wanted to put into this story. So there's not as much in the way of emotional dialogue, definitely not.
But I think, I hope that the choices that the characters make, and the actions that they do kind of show rather than tell their emotional state. There's always, in everything I write, family and friendship. To me, they're the, the thing that bind us all together as a human race. They're kind of the fundamentals to us all.
So they'll always be strong themes of family and friendship in anything I write. And that's no different for this book and this series. I just approached it in a slightly more pragmatic, less sentimental way than I have my other series, I think. And that was just really in the hope to just give it that Norse touch.
[00:16:00] Zay: Yeah. I mean, I also appreciate that, given a strong female lead, it's not necessarily also leaning into cliches that the female is more emotional necessarily. It's, you know, she's a, she's a warrior and she very much acts like a warrior even as a retired one. So kind of this mixed Nordic fantasy with also these living, experienced people.
Do you have any advice for writers who are trying to mix that kind of fantasy with real depicted history?
John Gwynne: well, I mean the only advice is the way I approach writing. Cause I haven't had a background in kind of creative writing. My first book, Malice, book, one of The Faithful and the Fallen, was the first thing I'd ever written creatively.
I came to writing quite late in life, in my early thirties. And, when I [00:17:00] started if I just give you a little bit of backstory.
Zay: Please.
John Gwynne: I was studying and teaching at Brighton university, but my daughter Harriet's profoundly disabled. And so my wife and I are her carers, but there was a particular time where she was, I mean, she always needs a lot of care.
I mean, she's wonderful, but you know, she needs 24 seven care, but there was a particular time or period of time where she was, exceptionally unwell. And so I stepped out of Uni to just help more at home, and that's when I started writing, because I just thought I needed a hobby, something that I could do at home,
and my wife suggested that I try writing a book. And I can remember it clearly, we'd just come back from seeing The Two Towers, the second Lord of the Rings film, and we were sitting in the hall and we were having dinner and my wife, Caroline said, you should try writing a book.
And I was like, don't be silly. You know, you need certain key factors, like plot, character, and some serious talent. And then my [00:18:00] children kind of got in on the conversation. And after a little while I thought, you know what, I'll have a go. It's a hobby, it might be fun. So that's how I started writing.
But when I've sat down to have a go, I suddenly thought, actually, I don't really know how to do this. The only way I knew how to write, was how I'd learned at uni, which was, the mantra of my, one of my favorite tutors was, 'to pass your degree, you need to read and then you need to read, and then you need to read some more'.
And he was talking about research, obviously, for whatever essay or dissertation you're working on. And so that how I approached writing fantasy. You know, I just started researching, and all of my fantasy novels are really a blend of hopefully history and mythology.
So my first series, is very much a blend of Celtic and Roman history and mythology, it's inspired by Caesar's Gallic War and, [00:19:00] Boudica's revolt alongside things like John Milton's Paradise Lost and a big dose of Celtic mythology. So that's how I approach writing.
And that's exactly the same method that I used for this new series, except I just focused on Norse mythology, Scandinavian folklore, and Viking era history. And I just make notes as I go through it, pull out things that either I think, oh that's cool or I love those details.
Viking reenactments helped a lot with that as well. And, um, I mean, with this particular story, one of these, so with, with the Bloodsworn Saga, Beowulf and Ragnarok were kind of the starting points inspirationally. So, you know, Beowulf is that, monster hunting, he's got his band of warriors and they hunted the monster Grendel and his mother, and then the dragon, and Ragnarok obviously is that end of days battle where all the gods met and just pretty much wiped each other out.
And I remember reading passage in the [00:20:00] Prose Edda called the, one of the books is called the Völuspá. And it's about a seeress who was prophesying to Odin the whole history of Norse mythology. And it ends with a really beautifully described, um, description of Ragnarok. And almost the last passage in the whole of the Völuspá is where the gods are dead and the world is born in you. And then out of the ashes rose this dragon and, um, this is NÃðhöggr, the, this dragon was...
Zay: Is that this?
John Gwynne: That's the dragon inspired by this passage, yeah, yeah. I haven't caught NÃðhöggr, but NÃðhöggr was locked in chambers beneath Yggdrasil, the world tree and he used to kind of chew on corpses as they pass through his chamber towards Helheim I think. And so I remember reading this passage where this dragon emerged from the ashes and, and, rose into the air and corpses were hanging from his wings and I thought, Oh, that's that's cool. And then the [00:21:00] next thought, I wonder what happened next. And that's kind of this, that was the spark for this new series. So that in a nutshell, that's how I approach writing.
It's kind of a mixture of those mythological inspirations, and then just trying to weave it into a world that feels, historically authentic.
Zay: That's amazing. Do you base the landscape... do you ever get to travel to those areas or do you kind of just decide what you want them to look like or base them lightly off of the epics you've read and kind of incorporate it that way?
John Gwynne: Yeah. I'd love to travel Scandinavia. I haven't. I'd really loved to, but you know, with my daughter, traveling's always quite an issue. My reenactment group I'm in, they go sailing Viking long ships, every summer for their holiday in Denmark, I think.
So that's something that I'd love to do. It'd be a lot of fun, but it's just, it's problematic getting away. [00:22:00] So yeah, unfortunately I can't do as much kind of onsite research as I'd like to do.
Zay: It doesn't take away from the book at all. I, would've never known that you never traveled to those areas anyways.
So you said that, you decided to do this research and you picked apart the things that you liked and you just incorporated those into the book. When you started looking into those histories, did you have a place that you kind of knew to start from?
Like, did you always have a love for those Scandinavia and other similar mythologies?
John Gwynne: Yeah, absolutely. I remember being seven or eight years old and, my teacher at school sat us all down around him and he picked up a book to read for us, you know, it's story time at school, and he opened a book called to The Book of Three, which is by Lloyd Alexander.
Zay: Oh, like The Black Cauldron?
John Gwynne: Exactly, Black Cauldron is book two in that series, but Disney made a film combining book one and two, and called [00:23:00] it The Black Cauldron. And that's really heavily inspired a Welsh mythology and The Mabinogion. I think Lloyd Alexander stayed in Wales for a while and just fell in love with the country, and that's, I think that's where the Chronicles of Prydain, which is a series that's where that all came from. But that is a book that hooked me on fantasy. It's my first memory of loving a book. And I loved it so much that I remember pleading with my mum to buy the book for me and book two in the series.
And I think she got them, you know, the following weekend. And that's the book that's kind of sucked me into that slippery slope of Hobbits and ring wraiths and dragons and tales of King Arthur. But I can remember very fondly. Always loving that blend of kind of fantasy books, but also mythological tales as well.
So I'd always have, you know, alongside my The Hobbit and Narnia, I'd have, you know,Tales of the Greek Gods and The Story of Troy and [00:24:00] Beowulf and Berserkers, and, and, you know, the Norse Gods and Thor and all those tales, all those books would, be, you know, just on my shelf. And that's what I remember nostalgically growing up loving.
So yeah, that love from mythology has always just, as far back as I can remember been a part of my love for reading. And then as I grew a bit older, I started... 'cause mythology is really just half a step away from history or ancient history anyway. You know, so much of it is wrapped up and intertwined together.
So, it, wasn't a big step for me to start getting into kind of historical novels and just becoming a bit of a historian. so, I love that, that side of reading as well. And that's probably the thing I've read the most outside of fantasy is historical novels, you know, Bernard Cornwell and Conn Iggulden and Charles Christian and Christian Cameron, all those guys, you know, I love reading that as well.
[00:25:00] So really it's just, basically my books are just me. I love mythology, I love history and I just try and kind of wrap them up together, a bit like a braided beard.
Zay: Yeah. I mean, if you guys read this and you enjoy it, please read John's other stuff, because while I think this is the best of your work, I will take that leap and say it, the other stuff is pretty amazing. So it has the similar, feel of combining all those elements.
Let's talk a little bit about Viking reenactment. Obviously, where that comes from is obvious. Like, you love the, mythology. How does that influence your work or vice versa? When did that start? Just kind of interested in all of it.
John Gwynne: Sure, sure. as a family, we've always gone along to kind of medieval weekends and festivals as observers, you know, and really enjoyed the experience. And I've wanted to join a reenactment group for a long time, but as I said earlier, [00:26:00] traveling's always a bit of an issue for me. So I eventually found, um, came across a group called the Spears of Andred, which is a Viking reenactment group who trained locally. And so this was probably five or six years ago now. and my sons, all three of my sons, well, you know, they might say probably brainwashed them, but they love history and they love fantasy as well. So we all joined together, this reenactment group, and it's just so much fun, you know, it's great fun. We train out in the open on the downs, so there's, you know, we're not in a sports hall or anything like that. We're out in the weather, and it's, it feels great doing that. But I remember very clearly, my first session, we turned up and I got given a battered round shield with an iron boss and a helmet and a spear, and was then taught the very basics of shield and spear work. And this is just a nice little example of the details that reenactment can help, or it helps me [00:27:00] anyway, put into my writing.
So after 10 or 15 minutes of combat with a shield and, you know, you're standing and holding it like this, the pain, the burn in your shoulder... and the shield's not that heavy, you know, you pick it up and it's fine, but after 10 or 15 minutes of doing some combat it's excruciating pain, it got to the point where I had to just take a few steps back and just drop my arm because I couldn't... I couldn't physically hold it up any longer.
And that really struck me as, you know, obviously so much of writing is imagination so that's what we do, But just to experience those little details, it's something that I found really... well, hopefully... I hope it adds layers of detail and authenticity to what I write.
And it's not just the combat, you know, like I've had a coat of maille that I've got stuck in. it's not as easy being a Viking as you'd think sometimes, and mail is, is heavy. You know, you don't realize, [00:28:00] it's really heavy. So just walking around with that weight on your shoulders and it rubs on your shoulders.
So you kind of hoist it up and tie your belt really tight to take the weight off of your shoulders. That's another kind of, um, just another tip for wearing maille. Another detail that I would never have thought of, unless I'd done it. There's so many small things, like doing buckles up, for example, cause you do your chin strap up on your helmet, you do your buckles up for your weapons belt, but usually wear gloves in combat, but you don't want to put them on first because you can't do your buckles up. So you always put your gloves on last. There's just hundreds of little, tiny little details like that, that I've learned through doing reenactment.
And that's before you even get to step into the shield wall, you know, and start trying to stab someone.
Zay: And you said, hopefully not just your battle scenes, but I do want to touch on that because your battle scenes are [00:29:00] fantastic. They're not, uh, they don't feel like... you know, sometimes when you're reading, battle scenes can almost feel like they're... like a music video, choreography or something. But yours don't come across like that. You're just feel like you're in the messy unscripted, you know, scary, thing that battle is. And, it's just interesting to think of how, the reenactment might add to that. is there other influences that help you create such vivid, beautiful battle scenes?
John Gwynne: Oh, I mean, thank you for saying that, I'm really pleased to hear you say that because that's what I strive to do. You know, I agree with you, so much of what you read feels kind of choreographed and balletic, you know, like a dance. And... I don't think real combat tends to be very much like that. Um, obviously I've been doing reenactment for five or six years, so I've been writing for longer, a lot [00:30:00] longer than that.
But I remember that there was a film that really inspired me or stuck with me, that I kept with me as I started writing combat. And, um, it might be a bit of a surprise to you, but it was the film Braveheart, you know, the William Wallace film. So when I went to see that it was back in 95, 96, when it came out and at that time, I mean, I thought it felt groundbreaking in the way that it filmed, you know, medieval combat. I think films of that type, you know, whether they were fantasy or historical films with swords in basically, always had that Hollywood gloss where it, you know, it was... and Braveheart just stripped all of that away and it felt horrible and terrifying and this kind of kaleidoscopic overwhelming flood of images that kind of assault your senses, just the way it's filmed. It felt like you were there standing on the [00:31:00] field with them. I remember just having that feeling when I came away from watching it the first time. And I think it's a bit like the opening scene of Saving Private Ryan, it had that kind of impact at the time.
And obviously film and TV has moved on since then. So it probably feels a little bit tame compared to anything else now. But at the time it felt really groundbreaking to me. And now I remember when I started writing that that's the feeling I was trying to capture, you know, as if someone was in the middle of it with a GoPro on or, you know, a Steadicam, you know, that kind of feeling of terror and rage and this just overwhelming assault on the senses. A film I've seen recently that. Again, I'd say, touches on that for me is, um, The Revenant.
Zay: Hm.
John Gwynne: There's an opening scene, of an ambush. And it's just like these fractured images coming at you from all around, and the camera's just following, moving around and it [00:32:00] feels chaotic and terrifying. And that's really what I'm trying to capture in my combat. I don't want to write, you know, choreographed dances. I try, again, you know, I try and make it feel authentic. And from my, experience at reenactment, you know, it's very much... you're in a shield wall and you're, and you're focusing on one thing and you die from someone that you've not seen, you know, you have a spear come in from an angle , where you're not focused and, it's quite kaleidoscopic like that. So that's how I try to approach combat.
Zay: Do you think that, having done the reenactment, with that combat stuff makes you feel kind of closer to your characters as well? Or, I don't know how your process works. Like if you do even feel kind of close to your characters, but kind of having a sense of what it might feel like for them, you know, putting on the armor and all that stuff.
John Gwynne: Oh, definitely. Yeah. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah. [00:33:00] I do. I really hope so. You know, I try to... to just stir in the experiences that I have, and then just, kind of let creative imagination go to work it as well.
But I, I really try to ground the characters in those kind of authentic details. Yeah.
Zay: Yeah. I mean, just you talking about, for instance, like putting on the armor and like it being heavy and stuff, it makes me think about how not only strong, but how battered and calloused and just different, their experience would be compared to all those little details that maybe kind of get lost even when you're watching them, you know, fighting and stuff.
The marks are obvious when they get hurt, but you know, those little wear and tears that take on for years kind of... it really like elevates that imagination.
John Gwynne: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely, for sure.
Zay: do you and the reenactments, is everything kind of historically accurate or pretty [00:34:00] close?
John Gwynne: Um, so in our group, yeah, they try to be as historically accurate as we can be. Obviously with, you know, a lot of history is a guessing game, isn't it?
Especially when you go back that far, you know, you're going back a thousand plus years, then you have archeology and historical finds and old manuscripts to go on, but you don't know for sure. But we've got someone who's like, uh, they call them, the authenticity officer.
So they check your kits, you know, they... check your kit, so it's all authentic before you go on. So for example, if your tunic has to be hand-stitched, the stitch lines have to be hand-stitched, they can't be sewn with a sewing machine or something like that.
Zay: Wow.
John Gwynne: Yeah. Yeah. It can be quite annoying sometimes.
Zay: So you're telling me the back of the chainmail doesn't have a zipper.
John Gwynne: I'm afraid not, no. It would be so much easier, wouldn't it be?
[00:35:00] Zay: Yeah. I mean, as some of the people know. I might get in and out of my armor, which is not historically accurate for garb and stuff. And it is a process. I mean, it's all the straps and the, you know, it probably wouldn't pass the, police, but, so kind of changing gears a little bit. I'd imagine that as a writer, you don't get to read all the time, um, cause that's kind of the theme that I get to hear a lot. but are there any modern, fantasy works that you feel either influenced your work or that you just enjoy or would recommend?
John Gwynne: Okay. Yeah. I mean, you're absolutely right. It's one of the ironies of writing is that you get less time to read, which can be really frustrating sometimes. but yeah, you know, I still do manage to squeeze in books that I read for pleasure. I mean, one of my favorite fantasy writers is Joe Abercrombie.
Zay: Oh, yes.
John Gwynne: You know, even though, I mean, I know he's kind of [00:36:00] labeled as grim dark.
Zay: Oh, we like him. We've had him on here.
John Gwynne: Yeah, and I like, I love grim dark as much as I love any other sub genre in fantasy, but I think just as a writer that he's exceptional. There aren't many people out there who can write the dialogue of a character and you know who the character is just by reading a couple of lines of their dialogue. Don't tell him, I said that. I think he's an exceptional writer.
other people that I... kind of, my comfort reads that I always, I'll buy their books and read them without knowing anything about it, just cause I love their, you know, just... everything about how they write clicks for me is, um,Bernard Cornwell. I love his historical novels. Christian Cameron, who also writes fantasy as Miles Cameron.
I love pretty much everything he's written. So there's, you know, quite a few contemporary authors as well that I'll read when I can. I've just read Jay Kristoff's Empire of the Vampire, which I thought was great. And I'm [00:37:00] reading an indie author at the moment, Ben Galley. His book called the forever King, which is a lot of fun. I'm really enjoying that.
Zay: The forever king, huh.
John Gwynne: But it's like, you know, you just get snippets of time, so maybe bedtime... that's when I get most of my kind of pleasure reading in all the other reading time is it ends up going on... usually on research for either what I'm writing right now, or ideas for what might be coming next.
Zay: I know some people might kind of think of a history read as a bit dry, but you know, you also get to read a lot of mythology. Is there any historical books that you'd recommend for people?
John Gwynne: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you talking about kind of Viking era history, there's the books called The Children of Ash and Elm, and that's by, um, Dr.
Neil, Neil Price, I think. I think he's a lecturer at Uppsala University. Anyway, that's as definitive and thorough, a retelling of Viking era history as I've come [00:38:00] across. And it's told in an engaging way as well, I think. There are a lot of historians who I think these days are writing in more of an engaging way and less of a dry approach. Neil Oliver, a Scottish guy, has written about the Vikings and his book was, it was funny, you know, it was really funny.
Um, Who else? I mean, there's quite a few out there now. I think Mark Morris is another historian. who's it's not about the Viking era, he's written about the Normans and the history of England leading up to the battle of Hastings, but that's a really entertaining read as well.
So I think that, you know, even if you want to read history, you can find people that are writing it in an engaging way these days. And I like to read historical novels as well. So, you know, it's not, it's more of a, that's even less dry, you know, because you've got hopefully an engaging tale, where you can root for the characters, but you can still pick a few historical, tidbits up along the way.
Zay: Yeah. I [00:39:00] put the, um, Ash and Elm into the chat and it looks like it's also on Libro.fm, so that's cool, if anybody wants to check it out as an audio book. What do you hope, you know, cause you said that you write books that you want to read, so, what do you hope that people get the most out of this most recent work?
John Gwynne: Well, first of all, I hope that... I hope that my readers will just be swept away for however long it takes them to read it. You know, they'll just, they'll find a story that entertains them and engages them emotionally where hopefully, when they close the book, that they'll be thinking about those characters.
They'll be wondering about what happens next and just carried away with the story. Just, you know, just pure escapist entertainment is my first goal. Tears are always good. If a reader cries or just feels any kind of emotional reaction, then you know, that's amazing to me. That's the Holy grail, some kind of emotional [00:40:00] response or reaction that's what I'm hoping for.
Zay: Yeah. You mentioned Joe Abercrombie, his books are some of the only ones that ever made me like laugh out loud, except Lord of the rings. Maybe a couple of times. This book made me do that once or twice. nice So It's not all tears and sadness or anything like that, if you guys are wondering. It definitely has that dry humor that you mentioned. That kind of Nordic sense of it's hard and we're going to do it. So it's getting through. but yeah, I guess lastly, there are some Epic, this is just kind of me fulfilling, some of my personal things I want to know, but you have some pretty cool, like Epic shots in there.
for instance, and I'm sorry if this one gets mentioned all the time, but the mountains with like, you know, the like skull head and the spine kind of... I am not describing this. If you're, if you're not a reader of this book, I just read it because it's pretty [00:41:00] cool, but it's basically this, God skeleton, I guess?
do you like write out those kinds of moments first or do you fall into those along with the character?
John Gwynne: Yeah, I know what you're talking about. It's the skeleton of a dead God who was a snake, Snaka. His skeleton kind of forms, a mountain ranges he's so huge. But I mean, really it's an organic experience, writing. So sometimes... that idea came to me very early on.
I remember going up to London, to my publishers about the story. And they'd really... it was our first meeting, they just signed me on. You know, I I'd put over the synopsis for the story and they were kind of asking me questions about, 'Okay, so this is Norse inspired, does actually have Odin and Thor and Loki in it, or...' and I was like, no, no, it's just all that kind of mythology is a springboard to me to kind of craft my own world which is inspired, but not [00:42:00] copying it. And they said, can you give me any idea of what the world will be like? And I said, well, one of my early ideas, which I'm playing around with is that you'll have this dead snake God's body, his skeleton, which kind of is the backbone of this country, that forms a mountain range, and there'll be a city, a fortress built within his skull. There'll be a Fjord running into his open jaws and there'll be a city within the skull. And so that was one of the really early ideas I had that I... that kind of the rest of the world grew around, but sometimes it could be right towards the end of that creative process where I'm crafting the world, that I'll get those ideas. It just comes... it just comes as it comes I think. It's not, 'Right, now I'm doing world building, now I'm doing characters. They're all kind of moving, jumbling around together. And so I'm just jotting this down about characters, I'm thinking about the world and, you know, it's, [00:43:00] it's a big old mess in my head.
Zay: Yeah. I mean, I'm honestly surprised that as far as the characters that you don't have essentially like character sheets already written because they do feel... they do feel, you know, like a fully developed character.
You get the sense that there's a lot there that is unsaid or there's a full background to this person. Not just existing in the moment that you're reading them kind of sense. So, yeah.
John Gwynne: That's great to hear. I'm glad you feel like that.
Zay: Well, we have a little less than 10 minutes left. We do a lightning round of just some fun questions that we like to ask the author. If that's okay with you, we'll go through a couple.
Sure.
Okay. one is, what is your beverage of choice? It can be non-alcoholic, alcoholic... what is your favorite thing to grab or
the thing that you grab the most
John Gwynne: probably coffee.
Zay: Yeah, right.
[00:44:00] John Gwynne: Yeah. I start my day with a hot cup of coffee and, you know, and that's often what I look forward to in my writing breaks. I'll go and put the kettle on and make a cup of coffee. So yeah, coffee is my fuel.
Zay: Yeah. This is some thing really silly, but if any of you guys are looking for something luxury and you enjoy coffee, I ordered a mug warmer off of Amazon. So it keeps your coffee hot all the time. It's highly recommended.
Um...
John Gwynne: That is a top tip.
Zay: Okay. What is your meal of choice? This can be your favorite meal or the last thing you ate, if you don't have a favorite.
John Gwynne: Okay. Meal of choice, it'd have to be one of my wife's roasts. She cooks an amazing roast. Yeah, definitely my favorite meal, especially Christmas dinner.
Zay: What would you have as like, what's your favorite side with a roast?
Or what's in there?
John Gwynne: Um, swede. I like butted [00:45:00] swede. It's always a favorite.
Zay: That sounds good. I don't think that we have that a lot in the us. So, you guys should try it. You kind of already went over some great reads, some things that you recommend, what is like your favorite book of all time, if you could only choose one?
John Gwynne: Okay, I mean like, that is not fair.
Zay: Okay, top three?
John Gwynne: Okay, okay. I'll stretch it to top three series. How about that?
Zay: Okay, that's fine.
John Gwynne: So, Lord of the Rings is my favorite series all the time. It's the, the book that, I've loved and read so many times. So that's in there. Um, Bernard Cornwell's trilogy on King Arthur called The Warlord Chronicles. I've read that multiple times and I weep every time, you know, it's, it's just beautiful, and the characterization, the characters in that series are just fantastic, you know, his take on Merlin and [00:46:00] Lancelot.
It's just, it's, it's hilarious and tragic. Um, brilliant. You know, it's, one of my favorite series of all time. And then I'd probably say something about David Gemmell, The Rigante Series, cause Gemmell was a very big influence on me. He was the first writer I read. Legend, his first book and I was a teenager when that came out and it was the first time I remember staying up most of the night because I just had to know. I had to turn the pages, I couldn't stop. And I hadn't really had that experience before. So, you know, Gemmell has a very fond place in my heart. And my favorite series of his is The Rigante Series, which is kind of a Celtic inspired story. So is that? Okay. That's my top three.
Zay: That's... that's perfect. I mean, you know, the people that come here, they like to read, so there's always room for more suggestions.
All right. What is something that you love to watch or binge watch? That's fine too.
John Gwynne: Oh so many things. [00:47:00] So on Saturday night we all watched, Avengers End Game.
Zay: Oh.
John Gwynne: That was not for the first time. You know, we've watched that plenty of times. So that's always kind of a comfort watch for us. Oh, and so many different... I mean, The Godfather series, I love The godfather. You know, classic movies is something that I like to watch a lot. So, uh, Logan, we watched a few weeks ago, which is, again, the film that I, could watch many, many times. I love that film.
Zay: All right. And then, last question, if you could sit down and have a conversation with anyone, real or imagined, alive or dead, who would it be?
John Gwynne: Um, King Arthur.
Zay: Oh shit. I don't think we've had that as an answer.
John Gwynne: Just didn't know if he was real or not.
Zay: I always love it when people pick historical characters.
I mean, honestly, anything from [00:48:00] around that period is, is a super cool read. Again, just to recap, we've talked a bit about Epic fantasy. We haven't talked on the stream in a while about Epic fantasies, but if that's kind of what you guys love to read, and that's a bit of a nice escape for you, I highly recommend this book Shadow of Gods. There is a female lead, so it has a bit of a different point of view, which I personally really enjoy. You can get it on Worldbuilders Market right now. And, the first 20 will receive a book plate signed by John Gwynne and gifted to us by you guys as well.
So thank you for that. Check it out. Thank you everyone for joining us. And, we'll see you next time. Bye everyone.
Patrick Rothfuss: Thanks for tuning in to Worldbuilders Weekly, everyone. Take care of yourselves and take care of the people you love.